On AI, Ep2: Craft & Creativity

Deep Vibe's CEO & Executive Creative Director Michael Gilday chats with BethOnAI  about how artificial intelligence is informing his work at his creative agency, the creative process and how we remain authentic in our storytelling by levering technology. 

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More info about the creative agency DeepVibe, at deepvibe.com

Hosted by Beth Lahr York
www.bethonai.com 
www.bethlahryork.com

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Episode 2: [00:00:00] Welcome to On AI, the podcast where we unlock the world of artificial intelligence for you, the content creator.

The more technology gets infused, the more I'm convinced that all this stuff really boils down to craft. Today, we chat with Michael Gilday, CEO and executive creative director at Deep5. You know, I, I'm a huge fan of using technology or when technology successfully shortens the distance between the story and the storyteller.

The amazing thing about this time in general is not just all the individual sort of advancements, but how they're informing each other. The more technology gets infused, the more I'm convinced that all this stuff really [00:01:00] boils down to craft. This is On. AI. Your journey into the future of creativity starts here.

Why don't you tell me a little bit about Michael and your background and what you're bringing to your current job environment? Michael. Well, no one calls me Michael. Everyone calls me Gilday. Although at my last job, I did not tell people to call me Gilday for the first time in my life. And it caused chaos for years afterward.

There was cascading effects of people like, who's Michael? Well, see that, now that's a testament of how like close you and I are. And at the end of this conversation, we'll be so tight. I'll just be like, you are not Michael, you are Gilday. And I am not going to let the chaos ensue here on this podcast. Not on my podcast.

No, Gilday. No. Yeah. Well, tell me a little bit about your crew at [00:02:00] Deep Vibe. And one of the things that I understand is that because you haven't come from this other place that many sort of people have come from, you've come with this artificial intelligence background and lens, you've actually put that As one of, in your tool set from day one, so maybe you can talk a little bit about DeepVibe, how your team works together, and then we can kind of talk a little bit about the AI component.

Yeah, I mean, I can, I can go a little further back or a lot further back, I guess, you know, I've been doing this for 25 years. It was, you know. I cut tape in college, you know, it was one of the last classes that cut tape. I went to Emerson in the 90s, but we were really right there as, you know, the digital revolution kicked off.

And moved, you know, to nonlinear formats. You know, my first NLE [00:03:00] was was Media 100, which was terrible. And then Final Cut 1. 0 came out and I was using it luckily on a project right then with some After Effects stuff and, and got in on the ground on that. And, you know, so, and, and I was an audio editor, I was into Pro Tools, you know, from like 3.

0 very early on. So I, I definitely got into a change mindset pretty, pretty early in my career and, and really looking at new technology, assessing it, you know, not. Getting overwhelmed by the sea change or the potential sea change and really trying to see Where it could accelerate what I do and and never get locked in or trapped, you know And and the interesting thing is, you know, the more packages you pick up the easier it gets to jump But because the fundamentals are the same, you know and so I've always, I've always had sort of a changed [00:04:00] mindset, you know, and I try to build teams where that's prioritized in people.

I've seen a lot of people who were forced to make one shift and then they're like, that's it. I'm never doing that again. You know, and you know, more power to them, whatever makes you feel comfortable. But you know. For people that I collaborate with, you know, always looking and not just using technology to use it, you know, but always looking for, you know, the new shortcuts, you know, I, I'm a huge fan of, of using technology or when technology successfully shortens the distance between the story and the storyteller.

Like all this stuff that we do in between to, to create things which are, you know, expressions of craft and are amazing. But all those things are, you know, it's all creating distance, you know, and, and the closer we can get, you know, to creatives creating things that move actual human beings[00:05:00] the better.

So anything that shortcuts that, it still allows them to keep their authentic expression is, is huge, you know, so as, as this current, you know, crop of, of Gen AI tools, you know, I, I look at us as, as entering into year two of Gen AI in March because yes, we had chat GPT in, in November of, of What was that?

2022, you know, but it didn't really, March of last year, and you know, Mid Journey was already out and Stable Diffusion was already out, but March of last year was when, like, every couple days, like, all these announcements kept coming out and coming out, and everyone was like, whoa, and like, really, and the amazing thing about this, time in general is not just all the individual sort of advancements, but how they're informing each other, you know, both both literally and inspirationally and and how they're starting to be, you know, a [00:06:00] multiplier effect that happens on all this stuff and you know potential just really started to become clear.

And uh, all right, we started DeepVibe which I guess I should say we are a creative agency doing sort of full service creative just creative, you know, everything from copywriting, design, you know storytelling, but really, you know, with a foundation in video and animation, both 2D and 3D, you know, we do production, but For the most part we do that for the post we are, you know, a post driven shop.

We love crafting stories in post But we were founded out of I was running the in house team at an AI Startup unicorn data robot and I had ended up becoming VP of storytelling and creative So I ran all of creative for marketing at about 15 people [00:07:00] on the team And by the way, not to interrupt, but here I am, I loved, I remember the time where I saw that title change to story vice president of storytelling.

And I remember thinking how incredible that was one for it to be a title for it to be a thing. Right. And two for, you know, the technology company that you're working for to also give you that. So that marriage was just said a lot to me about where you were in your journey, even though at the time, you know, I didn't really know.

Where exactly you were, but it actually did Put a stake in the ground about who you are what you do and the support that you're getting to tell the stories And and that's very consistent with what you're just saying about shortening the distance between you know The creative and in the audience that that storytelling component.

So I just wanted to pull that out because that's really fucking cool Yeah. I mean, it was a [00:08:00] lot to me. It was a long road. And I could expound for hours on the challenges of a, you know, Hispanic person of color in advertising marketing, especially in Boston, like moving beyond middle management. You know, I, I shot up really quickly early on took a detour in traditional film and TV in Hawaii and LA came back, but I just sat in middle management, lower middle management forever.

So to actually get into leadership in an organization in a capacity that, you know, like storytelling and doing it from an authentic Point of view and actually having the skills to back it up and it wasn't just a title, you know, what's awesome? Yeah, it was gratifying and then you know, I was able to take over all of creative.

So I was you know leading the brand and that was great and things kind of went sideways with the company outside of you know, our area of kicking ass and I don't want to get into the [00:09:00] details, but The opportunity came up eventually for me to take out my U. S. based video team. So take out me and three other people and start a new creative agency and bring them on as our first client under a pretty healthy retainer agreement.

That's amazing. Yeah, for a year and a half, and that was what allowed us to launch. That's amazing. Fantastic. That's fantastic. It was, it was awesome. And we had great people who we all, you know, were in the trenches together. We already knew how to collaborate, you know, how we work together, how we get the best out of each other, how we create more together.

And we'd been doing a lot of experimenting, you know we, all of us inherently are very excited about the intersection of creativity and technology. And, you know, experimenting and R& Ding and prototyping and not just trying to get to the easy answer but get to the, you know, fun and exciting answer and hopefully, you know, maybe we can shortcut some stuff [00:10:00] or punch above our weight class at the same time.

But we already all had that mindset and we're in the trenches together so to be able to go out and start pursuing projects and clients in a more proactive way who allow us to continue to level up in different areas, you know, and not just have to fight for an opportunity to show up in house. It was kind of awesome, you know, and you're going to say something.

Yeah, I think, I think it's really cool. What I, what I like about that is that. When you say in the trenches, and I think from a creative, collaborative, collaborative environment you really need to have the trust and that relationship with others. And, you know, I think that that often gets you know, forgotten.

I think at, at, at bigger agencies, it's, it's, it's almost like, you know, As a creative, you know, there's a line up the door for your job and, you know, those skills and those ways that you work with others and the way that you foster that, that trust and [00:11:00] that. You know, to take those chances, to take those experiments, I think is just really important.

And I remember one of my professors said that teams will form, then they storm, and then they norm, and then they perform. And I always call that out when I know I'm with a new group of people, and I'm like, okay, well, we're forming. Okay, I see this storm over here. How do I address that without letting it blow up?

And, and, and, you know, and it's a whole other thing. You didn't have to, you'd already kind of done that, right? You already kind of knew how to work together, which is super important for the creative to rise above. I mean, I, I, I am the most firm believer of that general philosophy. I'm also a big believer of servant leadership, you know, and, and what can I do to you, you know, what can I remove?

What obstacles can I pull out of the way to help you succeed? And a lot of the DNA of, of this agency was, [00:12:00] you know, formed to be anti agency. You know, and a lot of my experience is, you know, in agencies and in the early aughts and, and, and in the, the teens as well. You know, there's things that I loved about agencies that I learned so much from.

And. You know, I started doing in house video on the agency side at a digital marketing agency my first job out of college when we were first inventing digital marketing, you know, in, in 1999. And I was doing video in house back then when videos were postage stamp size on the internet, you know? I don't know why.

But, but, you know, I'm a, I'm a producer by trade, you know, and have been for much of my career and, you know, there is, you know, an innate sort of team building approach that any producer has to develop, you know, especially those soft skills, if they're going to get anything done at all, you know but I'm also, you know, I'm a musician, you know, I was in many bands, I, Most of the things I've learned about [00:13:00] creative collaboration come from, from making music originally the seeds of it, at least, you know, when you're in a band with, you know, we just the typical, you know, five person, you know, male band it's like being married to four other dudes, you know, and that's, that's tough, you know, like conflict resolution, you know, and everybody thinks their thing is the most important and, you know, and, and Surmounting that, getting the best out of everybody, you know, allowing different people to take the lead at different times, you know, being a leader and a follower and getting the best out of everybody is, is challenging.

And, but what you can get is so much better than what any of you could do individually. So that, that has guided a lot of my creative leadership and I know this isn't, you know. Treaties on creative readership, but I have so many thoughts. But no, that's, that's, I mean, we, we, I think it's very relevant in the [00:14:00] sense that Right now, you have to think of the creative process, I mean, I think we've talked about, you know, technology doesn't make you creative, but you can leverage the technology to elevate the creative, but the, the, the way that we inspire creative teams to work together, and how that's going to evolve with this new influx of tools that we've been talking about, and having that change mindset, I think that, you know, If you don't continue to have that sort of player coach mindset, then, you know, then you're dead in the water because, you know, there are things that I know when I need something on the team, if I don't possess that skill, I know what I need and I need to find it.

And so it's going to become more important on the coach perspective to recognize the players that we need and then understand sort of what they. came from because they might not have came [00:15:00] from the same background as you and I, they didn't have to go through the generation of, you know, media 100. And, you know, I was saying this last night, they have none of the background.

And no, and I, there's some freeing things, some great things about that. But there's some real downsides. So, you know, I'm always trying to reinforce principles that I had the benefit of learning, especially in the film business from 30 year veterans, you know, things that aren't in books, you know, and, and people don't necessarily have that experience of working on very large sets, trying to do, you know, very ambitious things very, you know, expensively, but also, you know, at a rapid pace and, and continuing to impart some of that, those learnings to, you know, people.

To my team members is huge and all this stuff and this is the more technology gets infused the more I'm convinced that all this stuff really boils down to craft, you know, and as technology, you know, advances and democratizes, [00:16:00] you know, Whatever, you know, endeavor you're trying to improve, it also and lowers the barrier of entry, which is amazing, but it also ultimately destroys the craft, you know, like when everybody can do things a little better and a little easier more people can do it, but how you got there and the reasons why you took the path to get there and the creative choices that were made, those kind of recede a little bit, you know yeah.

And less people know it but craft is where humanity really lies. It's really tied to perception You know, it's focus. It's it's finding the things that really We had a long conversation about this yesterday about those things in animation You know when you pull out all the extraneous stuff and you put in a few little details that really Take, you know, moving this ball from left to right from feeling like just a ball, you know, moving X, Y coordinates to something that feels alive, you know, like, and that the focus on how it's done, but also the [00:17:00] Y and then being able to then extrapolate that and bring it to, you know, other, you know, circumstances or context is amazing, you know, and, and All of this technology that, that, you know, especially generative AI that's able to do things for us as long as we figure out ways to continue to retain our humanity in the process and our, our decision making, and I've said this a bunch of times to people, until the audience is the robots themselves we still need to do things that, that resonate with humans.

And if the whole market goes one way, It's You know, the whole market zigs, then, you know, audiences are going to start to zag, you know what was working will then become counter. So, you know leading with authenticity, you know, in your work and, and I, you know, I tell my team lead with inspiration all the time.

Like that is number one, there, there is intention and there's outcomes and there's [00:18:00] executions, but like, if you can lead with inspiration, that. We'll fuel the tank and you can then turn and pivot and navigate, you know, but if you're trying to just, you know, if you're only guided by where you want to go or what you want done, you know, you'll run out of fuel before you get out of the gate.

Like, so I'm a huge fan of, of, of, you know, If people have instincts, feelings, you know, something, I'm like, chase it down, you know, like our whole job is, and I used to say this in, in music, you know, like when you're just playing with other people and you find those moments that, that shake your soul, it's like, you know, mine, those go deeper into those, you know, like, because that is tapping into something real and that will fuel everything else.

Like, yeah. Where do you find, where do you find your inspiration and I know that's a really super broad question, but in the context of, you know, the creative work that you do, where do you find your inspiration and where do [00:19:00] you think your team is finding theirs or do you direct them to say, I mean, I remember I had a channel that was like inspiration where we would just share work from other creators that we thought was really cool.

That was one way we would find inspiration. But how do you inspire inspiration? That's a weird question. How do you, where do you find that inspiration? Well, I'm, I'm lucky, you know, that I don't make much stuff anymore. I help, I help guide them in their journeys, you know, like I've made tons of things. I don't have a ton to prove anymore.

And, you know, a lot of them have, still have things to prove, you know, rightfully or not. But, you know, so I, I find inspiration in them and, and what gets them going, you know, but the, you know, there, there's a couple of different forms of inspiration. There's, there's inspiration in the technology and what's happening and what's possible and where things are headed.

And that is, that is mind blowing, you know, like it's totally, it's so exciting much, it's way too much, you know, and trying to [00:20:00] figure out which thing should I put some effort into is challenging, you know, and, you know, oddly enough, LinkedIn has become, you know, my, Community that the algorithm, you know, is now, you know, pushing posts to me from is super inspirational.

Like there's a lot of, you know, more traditional technology folks, but there's a lot of, you know, digital creatives in there who were doing amazing things and, you know, technology announcements. But I, I learned so much and, and, you know, I tend to curate a lot of those and bring them back into the group.

You know, we're, we're a remote. Only company. We learned many years ago how to collaborate remotely and not just the hard parts of it, but also the soft parts and how to still feel connected and have good communication and and have community. So we use a lot of. But, you know, Slack is a, is a great one.

We all live in our Slacks all day. And we have a, a Gen AI and Tomorrow Tech channel [00:21:00] where, you know, a lot of the most interesting things that we find get shared in there. And you know, that's our sparks, lots of conversations and research and, you know, we've different people in the company because there's now 10 of us, you know, who, who are finding different things to run down at different times.

And we don't have a lot of gray space cause you know, we've been kind of in a rush for the last. 18 months, busy building a business, responding to clients, doing all the things, doing the J O B, right? Super grateful, but like, yeah, we've had a lot, but, but people are still finding time to, you know, explore the things that are pretty amazing and groundbreaking.

And, you know, when something's really good, we, we work into the process. And, you know, we've been using Gen AI from pretty much, well, before we started the agency from the beginning before that was. You know the term that was everywhere and you know, there are places that it has really sped things up You know, [00:22:00] like we use it all over the place in pre production.

We don't really use it, you know in final work very much Although you know that will continue to to bubble up I think but You know, really early on, you know, both from a practical standpoint, like we use text to speech all the time. Which we originally used Amazon Polly and then Descript and now we use a lot of 11Labs, which is amazing.

But to be able to timeout, you know, either VO for, for, you know, some sort of explainer video or, you know, voice acting or VO for an animation, like to be able to time that out in advance and, you know, maybe even put music underneath and get all that going before we bring in the VO artist or, you know, having one of us do the crappy scratch track.

I mean, that, that part from a practical standpoint just saves us a bunch of time because the client decides to change two lines. We just go in, retype it, hit export again, and we're done. You know, it's amazing. It's, it's, it's amazing. It's like, it's like designed for for. [00:23:00] Indecision. For people to make those changes, but it's okay because you don't have to go book, you know, the studio.

I mean, I'm just old enough to remember, you know, going to the studio, casting and casting, you know, a voice and then having the session and then, you know, three weeks later you have your spot or whatever. So it's like. You know, it's just incredible, all of the technology, and not even generative AI technology, just to be able to do it all digitally, and then to add that layer of like, that's okay, like you said, type it up, export, off we go.

That's why we do animatics, because it's much cheaper to make changes at that stage, you know, and to be able to make that process even easier is huge. You know, do you what? What do you find? Aside from sort of like the productivity, right? Like pieces of it on the up front side. Do you because I find this with myself and I just am curious, like if other people are finding this, do you do [00:24:00] you find because of that time savings?

And I guess it would depend on the client, but that you're able to sort of experiment In more of the creative rather than just sort of like, yeah, that's, that's, that's been my experience. It's like, okay, well, we're not necessarily making up a ton of time, but what we're doing is we're able to increase the that authenticity piece or whatever it is, you know, making sure we're really, really on target with the message for the audience because we can just change it.

And tweak anywhere that we can tighten up the process, you know, and this is back to the shortening the distance between the story and the storyteller. Anywhere that we can get the workflow better. So you're doing less of the busy work is more time for us to focus on what makes that creative or that execution really special to focus on those details and the things that make it sparkle and more time to play in the sandbox, you know, like I'm, I'm [00:25:00] a firm believer, you know, there's a lot you learn.

managing creative teams and and trying to help them get the best out of themselves and Creatives love rules. They love restraints that anybody who tells you Otherwise is completely wrong, you know But they still you know, the perfect analogy that I ever heard was like if you give Creatives a beach, you know, they won't know what to do.

They won't make anything, you know But if you give them a sandbox with four walls around it, you know They will use what's there to create the most amazing sandcastle, you know, but they won't just do it You need to give them time to play in that sandbox, you know and my job as a producer before and you know now is You know, running this agency with my partners is defending, creating the process and defending the process to such a point that we can give them as much time in that sandbox to play as, [00:26:00] as they can before it's pencils down and execute.

But now with a lot of these new tools, you know, we're adding tons of things into the sandbox, you know, that they can, they can play with and get inspired by, you know, and that's, that's the other big area that we use gen AI is, is, you know, in the early inspiration stuff, like, and, you know, we've done a lot of stuff where.

You try some things, you experiment, you're like, that's crap, that's crap, that, whoa, wait a second. There's something there, and it's something that I may not have naturally come to, or maybe I would have after three days of thinking about it, or two weeks of thinking about it, you know, and I maybe I would have stumbled on that direction, but that direction resonates with me, feels really authentic to me, and it's something to explore, and the fact that, you know, I went through some generations, and that thing inspired something else, and it's very similar to happy accidents in music, especially when you're When you're collaborating and somebody plays a wrong note and it changes the harmony, you know, or it [00:27:00] changes the melody and you're like, Whoa, wait, wait a second, you know, I love that, that that discovery process.

I think that you hit on something that's important to me where sometimes we're so focused on the finish line and sometimes we have to be. And sometimes, you know, done is good enough, which I don't really like that. Because, you know, and I know that given infinite time, we could noodle forever. But as a producer, I like deadlines.

I like things to be done. I like to, you know, but I also like that. Experimentation of like, I don't know, give it a try. You know, I, if, if I said to an animator, you know, this is what I'm thinking about, you know, I wouldn't say it starts on a circle and then it zooms in. I would never be prescriptive in that way.

I would maybe say, I guess I envision it as, you know, like a big bow in the center. But that's just that, that, you know, that was my first thought. And the first thought isn't always the best thought. Sometimes you come back to it, but I feel [00:28:00] like. It becomes a process of elimination rather than selection.

I'm not selecting a creative approach. I'm actually, like, deciding what it's not. And I think about Gen AI. You're discovering it. Yeah. That Gen AI thing, to me, feels like there's this hunk of clay. And, you know, and I think about that term, denoising, where they're like, where you're, like, tuning out what.

What isn't a flower or what isn't a butterfly, right? And I'm like, that just makes so much sense in my mind because I'm like, right, no, no, the wing isn't there. And it's almost like sketching. And sketching and sketching until the lines come into shape. And I feel like we don't, as creatives, often have enough time.

So when you say that, you want to give your creators that sandbox. Help them not get too distracted by all the shiny new tools, because that's definitely a thing. To actually let them discover what it isn't, so that they know what it needs to be. I think that's really cool. Yeah, I mean [00:29:00] Delivery deadlines timelines, you know, those are constraints, you know, and they're important, you know, and that kind of pressure can motivate people, you know, and you know, what the expectation is of the execution, what the objectives are, you know, we do we do marketing.

So there's always objectives involved, you know, from the client that we need to consider and who the target audience, all those are constraints, you know, but once you And ideally, you know, you're briefing everybody and you're laying out those constraints as clearly as possible up front so they, they know, you know, what the walls of the sandbox are, then you need to give them, you need to fight for them to have as much time, you know, and my team knows that, you know, my executive producer is amazing at this, you know, but they know that we will always, you know, Give them as much time as possible, you know, and then once it's pencils down, it's pencils down and we're into execution, you know, like, and we know each other really well that we can lengthen that [00:30:00] time a little more and give them more time to play with confidence, you know, that, that once we're on task, you know, every, everybody's, you know, rowing in the same direction and it's, and it's awesome.

But I love that. Yeah. But it's important for, yeah. Not just for the work, you know, but also for their own satisfaction, for their own journeys of discovery, for their own, you know, toolset development, you know, talent development skills. It's important, and for collaboration, that, that these ideas have time to go from seeds, you know, into shoots, you know, into plants.

Like, you cannot Rush that stuff too much. Otherwise, you know, you get wrote, you get manufactured and we can do manufactured when we have, when we have to, you know, but that doesn't serve the work. It doesn't serve our clients. It doesn't serve our people. So, you know, we're always trying to, and, and, you know, creativity isn't limited to, you know.

Editing or writing [00:31:00] or design, you know, or animation. It also includes, oh my god, my cat is actually trying to open the door. Your cat is trying to open the door? Yeah. Is it scratching? I told him. No, he's like literally trying to reach up for the handle, which he's never done before. I'm like, homie. Trying to exit or enter?

To leave. I'm like, homie, you gotta go. Just opine about nothing all day long. It's terrible. I'm gonna let him out. Okay, do that. Yeah, because I wish I could see him, but he let him out.

He's sad. So that, that was a little distracting, but no, that, no, that's okay. That's okay. I'm curious about your lens in the forward world of where this is all going because you said we're in, and I agree with you, we're like, you know, we've just like one year down, [00:32:00] right? And it's remarkable what has happened in a year.

And I, I would. Love you to sort of tie that into sort of what you've seen The evolution of other technologies and music and sampling because I know you have that background So I'd love to just sort of have your download on what's happening now with the technology where you think it's going for the creator and You know with any historical perspective that you can provide and feel free to share all those opinions you might have because I'm really curious Well, I mean, what's incredible is, is not just the things you can do now, but what they really, you know, portend for where things are going, you know, and, and technology is amazing, and, and the cycles are really fast, but they keep, you know, getting faster and faster and faster, and we are amazing.

Really on a rollercoaster now and and I have no idea where it's going to end up, you know but but you get flashes and glimpses, you know, and [00:33:00] It's amazing at the same time, you know, it's scary as all hell You know, I've I've described it. There's a wave right now that is getting bigger, you know, and While it is inspirational for us and our team.

I've also Told them that this is existential to some extent like we have an opportunity if we can paddle fast enough That we can ride this wave into the future And if we don't, you know, we will get crushed on the rocks, you know And we will become a casualty and there's gonna be winners and losers just like there is with any technology revolution we want to you know be on the winner's side i've i've been there at some pretty interesting, you know, You know, the information technology revolution, like in the late 90s, you know, the dot com boom.

I was too young to make money off of that and, you know, and, and You know, then the mobile thing. I was [00:34:00] often traditional film and TV But like I feel like me and and my team are perfectly positioned for this and an experience You know to really catch this wave and we also love it, you know, and it comes from a genuine place So so we're really leaning into it, but you know, it is existential, you know, and I feel bad for younger folks, because I feel like a lot of the more entry level jobs are really, you know, the things where you could, you know, sort of get in the door and learn the craft.

Like, a lot of those are gonna suffer. So I, you know, tell every young person that will listen, like, lean into these tools, you know? Like, you don't necessarily have the craft and experience that will give you the benefit of the doubt. So, like, lean in and learn how to, how to, Not just get amazing things out of the tools, but like show that you have that change mindset and you can [00:35:00] adopt You know all these new techniques and approaches and services that are happening because they're just gonna keep happening and I I executive produced a podcast when I was at DataRobot about AI and its future impact on society and talked to tons of Amazing people and got a lot of incredible insights and you know There's a lot of existential dread that that goes along with a lot of this Especially if you're a you know dystopian sci fi fan like I am, you know, like yeah I've got my eyes wide open, you know, plus we went through You know, the, the democratization of information, you know, in the, in the, you know, late 90s and early aughts where we're like, Oh, you know, we just give everybody access to information.

It's, it's gonna make the whole world better. And it made a lot of things better for a while. And then we started to see the downside of that in the last 10 or 15 years. Where, you know, a lot of darker, you know, less benevolent communities were also able to [00:36:00] find each other and, and create connections and, and wreak havoc.

So, so there's, you know, technology is always a double edged sword you know, and, and what can save can also kill. But, you know, so I think there is a lot of scary stuff, and it is important that people think very hard and that we have these debates publicly about the impact of this stuff. But You know, not using it as an excuse to, to try and, you know, stem the tide or stop it because that's not happening.

It's too late. Everything's, it's, it's, yeah. It was too late 20 years ago. Like, like, you know, the, the game was set a long time ago. Like, we, we just are just catching up to it. So. You know, but I do think people need to understand they need to have deeper, you know, discussions and and more people need to be involved in the dialogue, you know, not just technologists or corporate [00:37:00] interests.

But having said all that, you know, it can give you superpowers like all of this stuff digital, you know The digital revolution gave us superpowers like this is gonna give us superpowers times ten you know like and like I said those things that shorten the distance between the story and the storyteller and you can Put out more amazing stuff more ambitious things for way less money, you know, and you can truly express, you know the Who you are and the things that come to you and and you know the number one most important thing that I think you know Every creative needs and and I'm it's what I'm looking for when I look at any real You know or when anyone shares their work is is do you have a point of view point of view?

There's there's nothing else like I can teach somebody Craft, you know, I can teach them the tools and the techniques. I can't teach them a point of view. I can't teach them their unique personal perspective. Like, you can't teach taste. You can't teach [00:38:00] AI taste. You can teach a technique and approaches, you know, and those will resonate with your taste.

But you can't teach taste. It's like, do you have it? Do you not? I mean, it can be developed. People can develop taste to some extent, but they've, they've still got to have the instincts and the seeds, you know, and they have to want to put in the work, like, and some of us don't have a choice, like, we're just driven to put in the work, you know, and other people have to, have to work at it, like, and neither of those is better or worse than the other one, like, but a point of view is, is so incredibly important, and that's our advantage over the machines.

Right. like for a long time until they become the audience like we are the audience and We can create things that that resonate with us and it's not always perfect You know the pro tools taught us, you know When when we found out in pro tools that you could line up the kick in exactly the same spot, you know, like perfectly Mathematically [00:39:00] and then suddenly all music sounded robotic and lost all the humanity, you know and we started to learn that The kick and the bass were actually a little offset all the time for something that really, you know, any vibe, any, yeah, yeah, it's, it's those mistakes.

I mean, people love freestyling in hip hop because of the mistakes and how people get off the beat and then get back onto it or seem like they're, you know, it's the danger, like, Oh, he's going to blow it right here. Oh no, he didn't like, I mean, there's, there's a lot to that, that. that reinforces humanity and, and, you know, danger.

And, you know, we love comedians and stage performances because of all the ways that things can go wrong, you know, like, so there's an inherent humanity baked into all of that and technology by itself can't replicate that, but it can help you amplify, you know, the, the true essential humanity if used properly, you know, and, and that takes practice, you know, like it takes.

Working with it. When [00:40:00] people first started using synthesizers, making them sound, you know, human and authentic and organic. It didn't just happen that way. Like, it took a lot of people playing around trying to figure out how do I take this, you know, very electronic, inorganic thing and make it, you know, just as expressive as, you know, vibrating strings on a, on a piano.

And that takes playing, it takes experimenting, it takes failing and failing and failing. Like all great creative, you know, like, I thought that, I love that example of the synthesizer and a piano because that, that really does crystallize sort of, you know, some of the experiences that I've had working with some of the tools that I play with where, you know, it's like weird enough, but like, you know, There's definitely a sameness of some things that I'm seeing right now, and I'm kind of saturated with a lot of the sameness.

And and I think that that's sort of just like, you know, it's the data sets keep getting [00:41:00] more same, more same, more same, more same. So I think that you have to, it comes back to that point of view of having a specific intention of what it is that you want, what story you want to tell. And, you know, I always think of everything that, that I've been producing as like a draft, right?

Or like, this is the, this is the, the, the story I want to tell and I had 12 hours this weekend to do it. So here's, here's what it is in 12 hours. But, you know, if I had six other people working with me, taking the concept and, and putting their eyes on it and their vibrations, so to speak, right? They're like, how do we do this?

dirty this up? How do we make it look less crisp? How do we make it look more like film and not like a, like a super high res video, right? You know, I mean, there's a place for all of it, but I think that it's really interesting to me where we develop an aesthetic, right? So if we look out there and we say like, Oh, you know, like I remember like my first You know, [00:42:00] probably back in January I got my first one of my, my first time I was generating images and it was like my daughter had said when she was little, a uni koala, a unicorn, koala an elephant.

Love it. Now let's just talk about that, how it sounds rolling off your tongue for like a five-year-old to say uni quant. That is a mouthful on its own, let alone that it actually feels like it's a word. Right? Like, so I put in a unicorn, koala, elephant, and this character came out, you know, I put other things like, you know, had like a, whatever, I'll share it with you, whatever, but I was like, wow, if I did that same prompt now, with the same technology, I'd get something like a different quality, right?

Because it, because it's definitely the, this, the, the, the, it's improved. But, you know, I feel like I got something then that I wouldn't ever get now, quality aside, right? Because Yeah, the weirdness dial has, has been turned down. But, yeah. You can do things to [00:43:00] reintroduce that with a lot of them, but Yeah, but I just, I just love, I just love that You know, I don't know, I kind of approach it, try to approach it all with like a child's mind, right?

So I hear something and I say, like when my other daughter was little she was like, Oh, do you think there are like male ladybugs? And it was such an interesting question because I was like, right. Of course there's, there's genders and insects and of course, but like we call it a ladybug and, but it was such a fascinating question to me that like we just accept, right, these terms and we don't think about them.

And so, an insect that I created was a male ladybug that looks different than the one with the shell, but it's still a ladybug to me. This is the male ladybug. And, you know, like, to me. I want to work with other people who aren't necessarily trying to invent a male ladybug, but that actually want to see [00:44:00] the world differently.

And the only way they can communicate it, like to me, I feel like I suddenly have an opportunity to communicate what's in my brain to someone in a sketch, you know? It's been so hard. I haven't had the tools. I'm not a great artist. I can't draw. I mean, I can, but I'm not, I don't have the abilities. But I have the vision, and that democratization that we were talking about earlier, I think is really exciting for creatives in general.

So that excites me. Yeah. I can't, I can't draw stick figures correctly, you know, like so a lot of you give them like six fingers and they look like hot dogs? I mean, but so a lot of this stuff is a revelation to someone like me who is, who is more of, you know, a collage artist who weaves things together to create story and context, you know, to.

I've never been one who can initiate, you know, outside of words, you know, from on the [00:45:00] blank page, I can initiate visual ideas. So to be able to, to do that is incredible. But, you know, you touched on, I think, you know, the secret weapon and the best inspiration, you know, engine that exists out there is little kids.

Yeah, well kids, you know, and most of us as artists, you know, whether we're, you know, taking drugs or you know immersing ourselves and things are trying to Regain that innocence, you know and get back to when all of the world was magic, you know And kids are already there. So I mind my Your ideas, you know like Because they're so much freer, they haven't been beaten down by what you can do, what you can't do, what the rules are by society, like, and their brains are so much freer to make amazing associations.

It's so cool. I was walking somewhere and I was I was playing with with the Luma AI scanning this [00:46:00] tree. And it was an unremarkable location of the tree. It wasn't like in this beautiful vista with this beautiful background. It was just a tree. And what I wanted to do was I wanted to have the object.

I wanted to extract it as an object. But the leaf shapes were, they did look like butterfly wings. And, and, though I wasn't capturing the motion, I, I, It looked like it was fluttering and it looked like a bunch of yellow butterflies and the way the light was coming through, it was beautiful. And this little girl walks by with her dad and the dad said, you know, like she was curious and she paused and, you know, parents, stranger danger, like, it's okay, leave her alone, honey.

You know, like, you know, I'm like so scary looking, but I was like. I was like, Oh no, she can ask, she's being curious. I said, I said, Oh, I said, see those right there. I'm, I'm filming this for my kids because I think it looks like butterflies. What do you think? And she said, Oh yes, we had this whole conversation about different types of butterflies and you know, and what kind of butterflies she's likes.

And I was just like. Even just having that conversation, you don't have that [00:47:00] type of conversation with a stranger on the street. People's like, what the heck's a crazy girl doing with a tree in a parking lot? Like, oh my god, like, how's it so interesting, weirdo? But like this kid stops, you know, and I was like, I'll talk to you, you know, tell you what I'm doing.

Well, talk about looking like an idiot. All I do is look like an idiot these days because, you know, I got a I got an Apple Vision Pro over a weekend. That's okay. Yes. We've got about five minutes left before we get to the bottom. Oh, we're almost over time. So I want to hear your impressions today, and then I'll have you come back in some amount of time Sure.

And talk to me more about your impressions. So tell me about, I mean, I've, I've got it right here. Oh my God. It's, look at that. It's amazing, but I look like a moron and I have to explain what I'm doing as I'm, you know, staring off into space doing this, but You know, I really wrestled with Whether or not I should should spend the money on it.

You know, I got it for for the [00:48:00] business, you know, I read enough articles where there was an undefined sense of wonder that a lot of the journalists were trying to convey and couldn't quite put into words. You know, and they were, you know, there's all the criticisms and the this and the that. But they all had this tone where they're like, There's a thing I can't describe here that is, is ama And that's, you know, that's magic, right?

And I'm like, I think I think there's something there and I, I firmly believe, you know, I have a lot of issues with Apple. I've been, you know, an Apple guy my whole life along with a PC guy. And, you know they have helped enable professionals in ways, you know, that, that no one has at different points.

And they've also abandoned professionals and gone fully for the consumer market. And it's, it's pretty disappointing, you know but when they make a big move like this, especially this being Tim Cook's. first [00:49:00] real product. I mean, there hasn't been a real new product since Steve Jobs died. They've only been iterating on existing stuff, and I think his legacy is wrapped up into this, so he really wants it to work.

But It's, it's different. It is. And I've experienced that magic more than a few times. And I was really worried that I would spend a bunch of money, and it would feel more like a toy than a tool. You know, more like a quest, and put it on a couple times, and get a little bit of wow factor, and then never Innately want to pick it up again and you know, I'm only four days in but it's completely different I'm I'm wanting to reach for it all the time.

You know, I'm Constantly like amazed at you know, the experience itself people keep asking me. What's the The killer app, and I'm like, Vision OS is the killer app. Right, right. The whole experience. M1 R1 or M2 R1, you know, whatever. Yeah, the whole experience is, you know, it's amazing. [00:50:00] And it is gen one, like, and this isn't the form factor that's going to change, you know, people's lives, you know, but for folks like us that will be creating stuff for it, I do think that, that AR.

You know, down the road, AR has always been the future, you know, when you can add context to the real world, you know, when you can have, you know, digital layer over actual, you know, things that matter to us that's where it really starts to add value, and I think to do that is a lot of 3D, you know, like everything's going to be 3D and as a shop that specializes, you know, in 3D and doing stuff in Unreal Engine and other tools and doing virtual production and all that stuff like and compositing and, you know, those are areas that That we're at the nexus of and we love, you know, so I really wanted to get a sense for what are the opportunities, you know, and what it will be the expectations for us to create [00:51:00] content for stuff like that.

But then more importantly, like what are the new storytelling, you know areas that are going to exist, you know, like I, I've been wanting to do a podcast for a while, but I just didn't want to do like an old media podcast. And, you know, with the, the spatial audio in the vision pro, you know, and, and the immersive environments, and it's really starting to, to get the wheels turning on how we could do something different, you know, and maybe it's not called a podcast, but some sort of, you know, longer Live jam in the living room Gilday, you know, just like, you know, jam out.

No, I mean, you know, zoom zoom in the, in the pandemic taught us that, that, you know, a lot of that stuff can happen. Like, so I think, I think, you know, figuring out what are those things that those unique experiences and ways that we can tell stories, you know, through this kind of technology and other people are going to make really good ones, you know, after Apple sort of blazes the trail and, you know, they'll [00:52:00] keep a competitive advantage for some period of time.

But the prices are going to come down, the technology is going to get better. You know, this is the worst vision pro that they will have ever. And everything, I have such FOMO, everything I've been watching is like going, and it's so awesome. And I know there'll be little quirks and bugs and all that stuff, but like, Oh my, my head, it's, it's, it's so exciting.

Layered on top of what's already happening in terms of that pace of of change and innovation being like just those cycles It's it's it's exciting and I'm sure we're gonna be further. It's so good. I Mean, I've done a lot of stuff just in a few days and just from a productivity standpoint having, you know five screens everywhere and you know being able to multitask in that way is is incredible and we're exploring a lot of stuff but I mean, last night I was in my bedroom watching Avengers Infinity War in 3D on the moon.

You know, [00:53:00] completely immersed. That doesn't help my FOMO, Gilday. That does not help my FOMO. I love Avengers. I think it's worth every Penny, but like, you know, I, and I never saw that movie in 3d. I don't really like seeing movies in the theater in 3d, but watching it in your personal viewing device, like where you're completely in it with the spatial sound, but at the same time, I'm on the moon, which is very relaxing.

Like it's incredible. That's awesome. That's awesome. You know, I, it's, it's funny, like there's the, that practical thing of having. I'm a very visual, we're visual people in the creative business. So I, I, I remember working, you know, on, you know, whether it was like an episodic TV show or any project where you're like back timing your schedules and stuff.

And I'd have the board with the post its. Like I literally want to be able to take the pro and the vision pro and just be able to go like, Oh no, we're going to move this edit to here. Then we're going to move this to here. Like That's the way my mind works and that was why it's always hard for me to go to a digital calendar because it's like I [00:54:00] need to have it in space, so I'm so excited about it actually working with it the way that I naturally work in the physical world, but having it be digital so that you're it's not like, Oh, let me take a picture of the whiteboard, you know, or let me give you the digital whiteboard.

The other thing I think is kind of cool. I'm not a big I'm not a big sports fan, and, and I have a hard time, like, I, like, I'd rather go to a game than watch one on TV because I just, like, I don't know, football makes me fall asleep, so sorry if I offend anybody, but like, it sounds, it's white noise to me, it's just like, I'm out, like, I can sleep in a second.

Yeah, baseball does that for me. Yeah, right. So, so, but what would be cool is that, like, what I do like about watching a sport on TV is that you have the lower thirds, the graphics, you know what pitch it is, you know what? But that's AR. Right? That is AR. Exactly. If you could actually, because when I'm at a football game, it's so hard because I was like, so first and wait, how many, what yard line are we on?

Because you can't see the line that you see on TV. Yeah. [00:55:00] So to me, I feel like there are experiences of like, oh, what else was this actor in? You know, if you're watching something, I just want to swipe and I want to, like, see, like, oh, that's right, you know, and I know that's disruptive to, like, a theatrical experience, but my brain takes a lot to focus in and I, I, I have the stimuli, like, I want to know, what did I see that person in?

Oh, is that, you know? That kind of stuff. So layering context on the real world is, is everything, but being able to do it in a seamless way that doesn't actually interfere, you know, substantively with the real world is, is the challenge. And it's, you know, we're still years away from that, like, and there's nothing wrong with that, you know.

But you look at, you look at the iPhone one, if you tried to use it now, you would want to throw it, you know, through the window. It doesn't have an app store. It's short, it's stubby. You can literally search some crappy mobile websites, play MP3s and call somebody like, but at the time it was a revelation, you [00:56:00] know?

And it was, and I had a smartphone before that. I had a you know, Windows mobile phone. I don't know why they sent me that as my phone number. I don't know about that. But this was a fundamental change. My own personal phone number. Well, but I, I existed initially behind a BlackBerry because I liked the tactile.

And, you know, I, it, it, now I'm fine, but it, it did take me time and mostly it was because BlackBerry tanked and they weren't going to make them anymore. And I was like, okay. But it takes, it takes learning too, for you to get, first you have to get forced into that. Kind of typing experience, you know, which is now you're doing it on the vision pro with just your eyes and stuff First you got to learn it and you get good at it and it takes time and then They iterate on on what works with it and what makes it better and that but that process, you know makes it all better like And it's a long road like and people who are just expecting it or promising that it will be [00:57:00] something it isn't sooner Like that's just silly like we have to go We, we have to go down the road before we realize where we're going to end up, you know, and, and how great the destination can be.

But but I'm here for it. Me too. I'm glad. And I think it's a perfect way to conclude our conversation. I feel like we could speak for hours and I'll have to have you come back on and dig into some other areas and what you're getting into. And but I sincerely appreciate your time. So thank you for, for joining me today.

Anything, closing thoughts? No, this was awesome. I, you know, I appreciate having the conversation. I'm glad that you're doing this. And if there's anybody out there that wants to give my agency money deep vibe. com, you won't regret it. There you go. I've seen you work. You will not regret it. Thank you so much.

All right. Thanks man.